|A very long control card for a very long ride.|
The point, of course, is to prove that the rider did not short-cut the course. So, controls are placed in such a manner that the rider MUST ride from Point A to Point B along a specific path because to do otherwise would result in a rider missing a control and thereby being disqualified.
Being an old sport full of long and storied traditions, some folks are understandably reluctant to change or modernize any aspect of the rules. I understand that. I really do. But, the unfortunate side effect of that reluctance, however, is that it sometimes results in courses that have less than ideal routing. For example, if the shortest distance between two points is a busy road, a route designer might choose the busier road because the longer (but lower traffic) road might require one or more controls. Too many controls on a route become troublesome because the rider has to stop a lot.
|Road signs like these make for great info controls!|
Similarly, a course might be unridable on certain days of the week or certain times of the day because the business at the control location is not open during those times.
I propose that we consider allowing the use of GPS tracks to provide proof of passage documentation. One of the arguments against this is that GPS tracks can be altered in Excel, allowing someone to cheat and fake a ride. Whenever this topic come us for discussion on our national rando email list, someone invariably chimes in with "the rules are the rules. If you don't like them, just go ride your bike."
In fact, this topic came up for discussion again just this week. I decided to write out my thoughts in response (in purple, below). First quoted is an excerpt from another list member, and then my response.
>> In the absence of a good explaination (which was the essence of the question in my first post), I am left to conclude there simply isn't any. Rules are rules. They have been handed down to us and that's that. Simply accept them as they are and participate in randonneuring, or don't. I realize this doesn't bother most of us, but it bothers me for some reason. I guess I just like the world to make logical sense.
The quill pen and the mimeograph machine were handed down to us as well. Yet we no longer use them. Instead these concepts were updated and refined into something better, and the users of writing implements and duplicating machines are the happier for it.
I'm always somewhat bemused by this idea that there is no room for change or innovation in randonneuring. Just because certain ideas or technologies did not exist at the time randonneuring was "invented" doesn't mean that finding a useful way to integrate these technologies into the sport is a bad thing. (And HAD they existed at the time randonneuring was invented, I have no doubt that our forefathers would have integrated them from the start.)
Cyclometers didn't exist when rando began, yet now we obsess about cue sheets down to the tenth of a mile and riders are put out when the cue sheet is not accurate to that degree and in agreement with their cyclometers. Very few people ride without at least a cyclometer, and yet no one is suggesting that these riders be disallowed the use of this convenient "modern" technology.
Because of the very small chance that someone might spoof a GPS, the usefulness of this technology for documenting the completion of a permanent route (or the arrival at a control) at a certain date and time is disallowed for all, 99.999% of whom are honest, trustworthy individuals. That's throwing out the baby with the bathwater, IMHO.
The use of a GPS file as proof of passage and completion within time limits is deemed unacceptable documentation for something as "meaningless" as permanents (meaningless because they qualify you for nothing other than distance awards). Yet we accept as ironclad proof the scribbled notation of time and initials by a random person on something as important as a PBP qualifying brevet card. The logical conclusion then is that it's easier to spoof a GPS file than it is to fake a pen scribble.... Or, perhaps not.
As a GPS track is *at least* as good documentation as an incorrectly time-stamped receipt from a backcountry store, or the illegible scribble from a random pen, I would suggest that we not consider it total rando heresy to allow a permanent owner to choose to allow the track to be valid documentation that a route was completed (or a control was reached) as cued, on the date requested, and within the time limits.
As Norm pointed out, "all of the methods we currently employ to discourage <cheating> are trivially easy to beat." I would therefore submit that rather than spend so much time worrying about throwing up <ineffective> roadblocks to thwart the 0.001% who might be tempted to cheat, that we instead consider the ways in which we can fulfill RUSA's stated goals of, per the website, "promoting randonneuring in the US" and "building a future for randonneuring in the US that encourages member participation".
The original poster (Chicken Sandwich) was looking for a way to create a route that is available 24 hours a day. Documentation via GPS track would facilitate this. Ergo, it's use encourages Chicken Sandwich to create the route and encourages members to ride it. This should be considered A Good Thing, in keeping with RUSA's stated goals.
I recently had a permanent rider on one of my routes arrive at a control only to discover that the only business at that location was closed (he got there before the store opened for the day). He photographed himself with the store in the background. He even stuck his watch (who wears one of THOSE anymore?) into the photo. Strict adherence to RUSA's rules would suggest that I DNQ him because he didn't provide the only "acceptable" control documentation, which was a receipt he was unable to obtain. Would this have fulfilled the goal of encouraging this member to continue to to participate in randonneuring? On the contrary, I believe it would have been hugely DIScouraging to the rider. So, I accepted his digital documentation.
We have a local 200K permanent on a lovely route that, thanks to the many opportunities for short cuts has no less than TEN information controls and something like five timed controls. FIFTEEN CONTROLS on a 200K. Lovely route, truly. But I've only ridden it once because stopping 15 times in 125 miles is less than ideal. (I challenge you to keep your perm card dry while answering 10 info controls in the Pacific NorthWet. :-) ) So while the route certainly discourages the potential 0.001% from cheating, I'd argue that the overwhelming concern with cheating that requires 10 info controls, coupled with the reluctance to accept more modern versions of proof of passage, is also serving to discourage honest riders from riding the route as well.
RUSA is filled with bright minds, enthisiastic riders, and phenomenal volunteers & leadership. I believe that as a community we can come up with methods to update some of the archaic rules in ways that respect the long and storied traditions of randonneuring, while encouraging new riders to become members, and existing members to ride more often.
I couldn't agree more with you!ReplyDelete
Yes, I agree with this. The Brits already allow GPS-tracks to serve as proof of passage, so I think it would make sense to look at what they do.ReplyDelete
In general, I think that far too much randonneuring energy is spent on the issue of cheating. There are no lucrative endorsement contracts and no tangible benefits to doing what we do except the satisfaction of having done it. I can't really understand why people would go to the trouble of cheating, but when they do, I say let their knowledge that they have cheated be its own punishment. Accepting GPS tracks would be one good way to move away from this preoccupation with the possibility of cheating.
While I do support the idea of allowing GPS tracks serve as proof of passage, I would also say that I have very seldom emerged from a brevet with an intact GPS-track. I either forget to start it, or turn off the unit to save battery reserves at a control and then forget to restart it, or Garmin just decides to throw me a loop. A policy will probably need to address the things that can happen as you record your ride--for example, can you submit two or more tracks that demonstrate that you finished the ride?
Bill - absolutely agree with you that way too much energy is spent on worrying about a few bad apples. As a friend says "Cheaters gonna cheat."Delete
re: your GPS. You might want to consider a different unit. In nearly 3 years of using my Garmin 800, I have lost exactly one track. And that was on a 600K where the unit auto shut off at the overnight. It continued to accurately record my mileage the next day, but when I dumped the track into both the Garmin website and Strava, it only showed the first day. So now I start a new track each day for a multi-day ride. The time between the end of one track and the beginning of the next is obviously my time in the control, since they end, then start, in the same location.
I propose that we start doing this just for permanents as an experiment. I'm sure there will be kinks to work out. And I also think that we should let it be the perm owners option to decide whether or not they want to accept GPS tracks, at least for now.
Now, how to get this in front of RUSA for a rules change?
Look at me, commenting in the appropriate place!ReplyDelete
I wholeheartedly agree with updating some of the archaic rules.
One huge improvement would be to sign one waiver for all RUSA (or all Or Rando or all of one perm owner) rides.
I have a file as fat as my thigh of signed waivers and registration forms for rando rides and the waste makes me sad.
HI Maria - I agree on the waiver thing. I thing the "insurance" excuse should be easy to work around. Signing a waiver that is similar to the one we do now, yet covers a certain time period, should absolutely be something that we could get the insurance company to agree to. It just isn't that complex.Delete
I've been thinking about the purpose of proof of passage ... why do we have it at all, as versus a complete "honor system"? I think the answer is that controls are not there to stop blatant cheaters, but to prevent mostly honest but human folks from cutting corners. This is why something as cheatable as initials on a brevet card is good enough --- you could easily fake them, but it would be really hard to convince yourself that you weren't cheating by doing so. GPS tracks, photos, etc also have that desirable property. What matters is not how hard it would be to cheat, but rather how hard it would be to convince yourself that you weren't cheating by doctoring the evidence.ReplyDelete
I followed the chat on the randon list until I nearly bit my tongue all the way off! But I kept a lid on it and watched with a mix of hope and doubt as the conversation slowly and steadily wound it's way throgh all the wickets, and finally someone, ... YOU! came up with the most sane post.ReplyDelete
I propsed to the RUSA Board a year or so a go that team events (fleches, arrows, darts) accept social media posts as proof of passage. Because in these cases the teams create and propose the routes to the event organizer. We have a buddiing cadre of younger, pierced and tattoed adventure seekers who want more challenge than rolling from one 7/11 to the next; they want to ride over the top of Mt Doom at 2:00am in early spring, slog through snow drifts, they want the epic ride. But of course there is no 7/11 at the corner of Mt Doom and Desolation peak ... but they could easily snap a pic and post it to their FB page, then preset a copy of that to the organizer at the end of the event as some sort fo proof of passage. How likely is it that these young nuts are going to fake it?
The answer I got was that it was deemed that this wold be too much work for the organizer and that the board had already approved quite a lot of change recently.
It seems so ironiic to me that on any weekend, year round you can count on seeing multipe FB posts of rideres leaning up against a C-store in the heat, or huddled around a cup of bad coffee with a cryptic comment like "ony X00 more Kms to go". Yet those same riders will have to get a receipt or a signature forma stranger as as proof of passage to get credit for a permanent that is really just a glorified training ride.
I have no doubt that Velocio himself would be the first to post his proof of passage at the trailhead to Mt Blanc, on FB if he had had the opportiunity all those years ago. Some of us forget that the early Randonneurs were Pioneers They were not using 'old' technology, they were using the currtting edge technology of their time, and wolud certainly have moved along with time if they could have,. They dion't have some arcane fixation with the old ways, they were as advanced as they could be.
I value the traditions of Randonneuring, ... a lot, but we need to add sense to the equation. I ran for the RUSA Board twice, for the same two reasons each time:
1. Someone thought I would make a good candidate so they nominated me, and because I ran on a promise of change. Some may have thought I
I meant to burn the house down, which was not the case at all, I just think we should incorporate a little sense into the mix. Accepting FB posts as proof pf passage on BREVETS is not part of my idea of sense.
Some times it gets old being the change agent, people roll their eyes and say, 'oh, there he goes again', so thanks for saying it more eloquently.
I hope your sentiments resonate with the membership,and a slate of candiates like you, willing ot conisder sensible changes are voted in to office.
I'm torn, I really am. I can see where you're coming from but having completed LEL 2013 I would be more than miffed if I found that someone had received the medal I hold so precious but modifying a GPS file. Now you could say that the "monuments" of rando like LEL and PBP are different and have permanently manned controls etc so will always be treated differently. However I believe that all events should be subject to similar rules where practical and that shouldn't vary just because one event is longer than another.ReplyDelete
Now I'm no Luddite and I do feel that there should be a way in the 21st Century to modernise and improve the rules. With the use of GPS, camera phones etc it should actually be possible to remove the current scenarios where it's possible to cheat. However that will require a lot of support from ordinary members of the sport internationally to combat the inertia built into the ruling bodies etc.
A comment of a paragliding pilot: In our sports (as well as in the glider sports) the GPS has replaced the old fashioned proof of cross country flights by witnesses, barogramms (to document the height) and photographic evidence of cross country flights (to be handed in by un-cut film material; guess how challenging it is to convince the photo laboratory, not to cut the film). With the GPS we hand in for international competitions now. Only for world records certified sports witnesses are required in addition.ReplyDelete
To avoid tampering with the GPS file, there is specific software available, that reads the GPS and creates a file, that has a check sum included, with which its authenticity can be proofen. This check sum is verified in the competition platforms, where you can hand in your flights. The specification, how to create the check sum is known to the persons, which write the respective programs (to create and to check).
So if somebody wants to go that route, you could check there. A starting point could be the online contest:. A link from the FAI page: http://www.fai.org/igc-our-sport/online-contest
I also could imagine, somebody in your sports somewhere on the world already has something available, that does the job.
As much as my lack of any kind of cycling computer might suggest that I am a Luddite, I am very much in support of photographic and GPS evidence as *options* for route verification. I also wear a digital watch (though if I could afford a mechanical analog watch, I'd prefer it). If a GPS unit were inexpensive, rechargeable, and had battery life in excess of 90hours of continuous use, I'd happily toss one into my handlebar bag for verification purposes.ReplyDelete
I'd much rather navigate with a cue sheet or map with notes, protected against rain with a plastic bag. This is because I find it easier to read than a screen and very reliable (no batteries to die, won't break if I drop it, not worth stealing off my bag if I walk into a bakery to get a snack and receipt). But this doesn't have to be threatened by allowing GPS use as official verification - keep the old methods, add the new.
The Audax UK Digital DIY Perms are very interesting to me. If we had an equivalent option, I'd buy a GPS unit just to be able to take advantage of it from time to time.
Dr. Codfish makes a good point about the role of new and sensible verification methods for routes with "more challenge than rolling from one 7/11 to the next." While I'm not pierced, tattooed, (or bearded, for that matter) I otherwise resemble his remark quite well. In 2013, I rode a flèche which featured several remote logging roads and "roads" better resembling the cycling version of "off piste." This was a scenic and enjoyable ride, but not the sort of route which is easily verified under current RUSA rules.
I'll share one other story here. I met Lothar Hennighausen, founder of Korea Randonneurs, at the 2013 Gold Rush 1200K in California. He told me that when he first ran brevets in Korea, the paper cue sheets and brevet cards didn't go over well, leading him to wonder what was different in Korea than in the United States and Europe. He noticed that everyone uses a smartphone there and so decide to add the option to use smartphones for verification purposes and to publish GPS routes. This greatly increased ridership and completion rates. (http://www.korea-randonneurs.org/page1g.htm scroll down for English. Essentially, they accept photo evidence).
As a permanent owner in Wisconsin, I wholeheartedly endorse the use of:ReplyDelete
1) smart phone photos emailed or MMS'd from the checkpoints; or
2) GPS tracks.
The amount of work required to modify a GPS track in a way that is not readily obvious would be enough of a deterrent. (Hint to cheaters…you'll need a really good random generation algorithm.) The reward would have to be significant for someone to make that effort. Smart phone photos are almost universally tagged with a date and time stamp. Modifying the EXIF data is possible, but requiring the photo to be sent from the point (or as soon afterward as possible - I know about areas with no service!) makes the likelihood of someone being able to do that effectively nil.
For major events, like LEL or PBP, it's irrelevant. They have manned controls specific to the event (and they're out 'n back!). This is much more about making it possible for more permanents and smaller groups to put on brevets.
One other point … often it's easy to find a couple of key control points, but not as easy to fill in points that, as you point out, allow for a much more interesting and enjoyable ride. So, use the key point controls and fill in the others with photos or GPS. Is that really so bad???
Susan, so well stated! Let's do everything possible to make riding these perms more fun!ReplyDelete
Many of my perms send the riders into National Forests deep into the mountains. Having the option to accept photographic proof or GPS tracks would be very helpful for route making- it would allow me to use the safest, most scenic route as opposed to the route the is easier to find controls for.
Susan, Ted and others,ReplyDelete
I agree that we should modernize the proof of passage on permanents and perhaps brevets by giving folks the option of choosing electronic verification or snail-mail hard copy including receipts or signatures. A signature can much easier to fake than a GPS track, yet a GPS track is accepted in randonneuring. I especially appreciate your 15-control 200K. I have had to design my routes by taking a busier road because I didn't want people to hassle with extra "Info Checkpoints" along the way.
Judging by the "chatter" on the route owner's listserve, it might be useful to (a) have a "trial" period and (b) to have a checklist on the registration form about which forms of "proof of passage" that permanent owner is willing to accept on that ride.ReplyDelete
For the Super Brevet 600s photo controls are accepted due to the routes so often going into high country where no stores,etc exist.ReplyDelete
A few random thoughts:ReplyDelete
1) We often ride in areas with zero cellular connectivity. Any paperless solution should not depend on the ability to post online during the ride.
2) I (and a few other folks I've ridden with) take photos at info controls, then update the control card at the end of the ride. This saves a lot of wear & tear on the card, especially on rainy days. Digital photos are always timestamped, so this seems like reasonable proof of passage -- assuming the camera's clock is accurate (usually not an issue for cell phones, but would require a bit of care for dedicated cameras).
3) GPS tracks definitely provide proof of passage, but require a bit of extra effort on the part of the permanent owner to ensure control closing times are met.
4) GPS tracks can be spoofed. Photo timestamps can be spoofed. Signatures can be spoofed. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Thanks for driving this, Susan!
Thank you for facilitating this discussion. I think the idea is certainly a good one and would serve both riders and route administrators well.
But I think it also raises a question about RUSA governance? Is there a process for the board to consider rule changes? Do they notify the membership and solicit feedback before voting on a change?
This is a great conversation that needs to happen. But right now the effort seems adhoc to get he word out via social media. Wouldn't it be cool if RUSA posted proposed rule changes to RUSA.org and in the Randonneur USA magazine and voted on a draft rule after the members could comment.
To address your questions: a small group of perm owners (including my self) & RBAs are working on a formal proposal to bring before the RUSA board. In addition to the very active thread on the perm-owners list, we are also engaged in a number of offline conversations with other RBAs, some board members, club presidents, etc., and will continue to engage others. Our goal is to understand concerns from all parties, address objections, consider methodology, and above all, do so in a way that respects the long and storied traditions of randonneuring. *Anything* that we propose will be strictly optional both on the part of the perm owner and perm rider, so that those who are not comfortable with technology will be required neither to use nor accept them.Delete
I am not aware that there is a process by which the RUSA board notifies the membership of proposed change, nor by which they solicit feedback from the membership. There may be, but I'm not aware of it. Board members reading this are welcome to reply with more insight on that.
Comment from the UK here.ReplyDelete
We have two types of permanents here.
Traditional perms where you obtain proof of passage via receipts , ATMs etc.
Newer DIY by GPS.
The former still require controls where you can get proof passage. Perms in this mould need to be accessible to both those who like to follow a route sheet as well as those who navigate by GPS. Those are designed such that the controls are open 24 hours or a significant period of the day. The notes often state when controls are open so riders can plan their start time. At the owners discretion they can allow you to start their perms at any one of the chosen controls, to minimise the distance you travel to ride it.
DIY by GPS. You buy virtual brevet cards from a DIY organiser. You choose controls by using google maps set to walking. That forms the minimum distance for your route. You submit a list of your controls which is a name and sometime a grid reference or lat / lon if it needs qualifying or is in middle of nowhere. You can includea link to google maps to help the ?DIY organiser.ReplyDelete
You then plot a route that passes through all those controls. Ride the route on the date you said you would. Then submit track log from GPS. Multiple track logs if GPS had a problem is not a problem. The organiser has special software to validate track is not faked. If it's all good, in time, and you passed all controls then your ride is validated. They are a great motivator and allowed me to complete RRTY (R12) where otherwise no rides were available. DIY got me riding from my house in winter where otherwise I would notReplyDelete
Finally we have extended calendar event. (ECE) . This is where you plan and ride to and from a calendar audax. The ECE distance plus the calendar event distance is the distance you get recorded. So you could ride 100km to a 400km and ride home 100km and your results show 600km.ReplyDelete
I've always particularly hated info controls. Once I had trouble finding a statue that was behind a LARGE placard. Another time, the control question was "How many steps are on the [closed] store building?", and there were at least three different answers, because people didn't know whether to count the bottom step (kind of buried in the dirt) and top (which was actually the porch). Plus, duh, don't tell RUSA, some information controls can be spoofed by a good use of Google Street Views.ReplyDelete
Does not count as ?BRM but allows you to get a SR recognised by audax uk.ReplyDelete
Also recognise the cheating responses. To what end? You only cheat yourself, there is no advantage to faking results. I could drive round, spending ages in cafés and getting receipts at end. But to what purpose? The amount of DIY by GPS is steadily increasing. It's opening up new ares where previously nothing existed that time of year. There's a rich repository of routes that take the nicer way because GPS allows that. The UK experience is positive, encourages more audax long distance style riding, plus I have a rich list of routes from the house that I can now use. I even share out my routes after a slight reroute to start from a nearby car park rather than my house.ReplyDelete
My favourite DIY by GPS last year used light houses as controls. Impossible unless I did it via GPS. But a great theme to my audax riding that year.ReplyDelete
that is MY 15 control 200k perm, thankyouverymuch. Very pretty route, and a variant of it was the Scavenger Hunt 200k brevet last October.ReplyDelete
Yup. Truly lovely. I look forward to one day riding it again, should both perm rider and perm owner be able to mutually agree on an electronic submission for proof of passage. ;-)Delete
Phil: My understanding from comments on the YACF site is that, as a matter of policy, GPS tracks are acceptable proof of passage for traditional perms, but, in practice, very few routes are set up for this.ReplyDelete
I am all for this as I use a Garmin GPSMap 76 CSX to give me a total picture of my rides. I have had to use it to get credit for a ride 2 summers ago in 105 + heat I came up low on sugar at the end of a 105 K perm ride. I was running slow the whole time and passed-out on the parking lot before I could get my card signed. The route owner gave me credit for the ride as the garmin recorded that I had finished the ride in time. I sent the route owner a screen capture of the map w/trace lines and the time shown. Yeah I am for modern devives...ReplyDelete
+1 from Pam! I almost feel the RUSA language is vague enough that all it may need is an "including, but not limited to" phrase, which would then pave the way for perm owners to make a choice based on their knowledge of the course, conditions, riders, etc. Excellent and well thought out writing Susan!!ReplyDelete
Perm owners should be allowed to use GPS tracks as proof of ride completion. There are far more data in my Garmin (start time, speed, distance, temperatures, altitudes, even stops at controls and other places, finish time, etc.). After all, it is the perm owner's sole responsibility to decide if a ride is completed and their job to upload the cert to the RUSA site. Let's make us of available technology to make life easier, and more ride options available.ReplyDelete
I am starting to realize I am not alone in being "bothered".ReplyDelete
Thanks Susan, for your work on this subject. Lots of great potential permanent routes in remote areas would be much more 'do-able' if these reforms were accepted by RUSA.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.ReplyDelete